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A Look Back in TIME: Interview with Timothy McVeigh
TIME's Patrick Cole talks to the defendant in prison
Timothy McVeigh met with TIME months before the start of the trial in which he would
be convicted of the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City that killed 168 people. In an extensive conversation with TIME correspondent Patrick Cole in Oklahoma's El Reno
Federal Correctional Institute on March 30, 1996, McVeigh talked about his problems with the federal government, his service in the Gulf War, and the case against him.
The "Real" McVeigh
Are you a killer?
TIME:
You have been painted as a kid from a working-class family who somewhere along the line became disenchanted with the government and became involved in the bombing. Are you the killer people think you are?
MCVEIGH: If it means that I was angered at what the government did at Waco and I enjoy guns as a hobby, I do gun
shows and I follow the beliefs of the Founding Fathers. If that means I was involved in the bombing, then that means that about a billion other Americans were involved in the bombing
as well. I don't think it is right to take someone's beliefs and convict them because of those beliefs.
TIME: So are you saying that you are not a killer?
MCVEIGH: (Pauses for seven seconds and looks to the ceiling.) I have already admitted to having, in the Gulf War, killed two
Iraqis, so I don't think there is any way I can answer that question.
McVeigh Unveiled
TIME: Who is Timothy McVeigh? Who are you? What is your
philosophy about life? What moves you? What bores you?
MCVEIGH: I don't think there is any way to narrow my personality down and label me as one thing or another as many
people have being trying to do. That's what they try to do with the psychological profiling, with the handwriting, etcetera, etcetera, and it's all pretty much a pseudo-science that I really
laugh at when I read. I'm just like anyone else. Movies I enjoy would be action-adventure movies, comedies, sci-fi movies and shows. I can talk to almost anybody. The big misconception is
that I'm a loner. Well, I believe in having my own space and being on my own sometimes. But, that in no way means that I'm a loner, which the press likes to equate with an introvert. That's a complete
misconception. Women, social life. I like women (chuckle). I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
TIME: What has been misunderstood about Timothy McVeigh?
MCVEIGH: The way I'm misunderstood, the method is through labeling. Speed freak. Gun freak. Loner. All those
misconceptions and I think that plays out and my defense attorneys have said that the people they have interviewed, they get a completely different picture of me. The real me has
not been reported to the press. If there are 40 people who have good things to say about me, and two have something bad, they print the bad because it's sensational.
TIME: If you could spend 60 seconds talking to the world audience, what
would you say about Timothy McVeigh? What would you tell them about what they have been reading about you?
MCVEIGH: I would say don't believe everything you see, or hear or read. Don't judge until you know a person. That is short
of 60 seconds, but that would sum it up pretty well.
Favorite Books and Authors
TIME: What do you like to read?
MCVEIGH: I like the action adventure stuff, sci-fi. I like to read a lot of history, I like to read science, especially astronomy,
and cutting edge technology and anything I can get my hands on when I'm in the mood to read. Different things, I never stick with one area. While I've been in here, I read everything from All Creatures Great and Small, because it was on the book
rack, to All Quiet on the Western Front.
TIME: Who are your favorite authors of political philosophy?
MCVEIGH: Patrick Henry, John Locke, of course many of the Founding Fathers: George Washington, Thomas Jefferson,
Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, Samuel Adams. I thought those men were, at the time they were extremely well-educated. They could talk us in circles these days, we
wouldn't know what they were talking about. I really respected their observations and analyses of history past.
Race and Religion
TIME: Some people have charged that you are racist? Are you a racist?
MCVEIGH: No that's completely false. That's again something, I don't think right now that's something the prosecution is going
to bring up at trial because I think they are realizing that. In fact I just read a, one of our private investigators interviewed one gentleman I knew in the service who is black. He said that
"No, I never saw that in Tim. In fact, that can work both ways," meaning that another person could have not liked me and tried to turn that around.
TIME: Are you anti-Semitic?
MCVEIGH: No, absolutely not. In fact - (he pauses to think for two seconds)...no.
TIME: Are you religious?
MCVEIGH: I was raised Catholic. I was confirmed Catholic
(received the sacrament of confirmation). Through my military years, I sort of lost touch with the religion. I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs.
TIME: Do you believe in God?
MCVEIGH: I do believe in a God, yes. But that's as far as I want to discuss. If I get too detailed on some things that are
personal like that, it gives people an easier way alienate themselves from me and that's all they are looking for now.
View of the U.S. Government
TIME: How do you feel about our system of government?
MCVEIGH: I think the Constitution is the greatest document ever created by man. There are always going to be faults in an
experiment, which is what it was. I believe there are faults, some of them serious, right now.
TIME: Such as?
MCVEIGH: I think it all has to do with life, liberty and the
pursuit of happiness, and the misconception that the government is obliged to provide those things or has the jurisdiction to deny them. We've gotten away
from the principle that they were only created to secure those rights. And that's where, I believe, much of the trouble has surfaced.
TIME: You were friends with James Nichols and he told us that you both
discussed government and freedom and you have similar views? What is your feeling about our system of tax?
MCVEIGH: I think one of the intents of the Founding Fathers in keeping to indirect taxation, and really not providing for direct
taxation except in unusual circumstances, was to keep government limited. They realized that the more income the government had, the larger it would grow. Our President told us
during the subcommittee hearings on crime and terrorism that we should not be focused on Ruby Ridge and Waco, we should be focusing on bombs. Well, that's the tendency toward a
narrow view that is contributing to the problem. Each one of these events that I've named are just symptoms. A good physician is going
to examine the symptoms to find the disease. And no one's paying attention to what the disease is. They are not trying to identify it. All they're trying to
do is to treat the symptoms. People have to really analyze, step back and try to think what is the cause of all this? It's all inter-related, whether it be the
events I named or the growing resentment of taxation in America, obtrusive government. There is larger problem.
TIME: Do you think our democratic system permits a full airing out of
grievances that anyone might have against the government?
MCVEIGH: I believe there are many checks and balances built into our system of government. However, I think many of them
have been circumvented and right now you have an arrogance of attitude, an omnipotent attitude. An example would be property seizure, asset seizure. If it's unjustified, what do you
have to do to get the stuff back? You have to sue. They know that people don't have the money to sue the federal government, to go up against their unlimited resources. I think
another aspect to that has to do with to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the
consent of the governed. Their just powers. I believe we've lost track of what the just power of the federal government is and what it is not. There are too
many things that are being given to a democracy that shouldn't be the subject of a vote, that are inalienable rights that are not to be decided by a central government.
Military
TIME: Why did you join the military?
MCVEIGH: I wanted to see more of the world. I thought I had led a sheltered life and I pretty much had. I had never really
gotten out of my hometown. I fell for the sales slogans, "Be all you can be" and "We do more before nine o'clock than most
people do in a day." I said, "Alright, let's try it."
TIME: What was your feelings about engaging in war? I take it when you joined the country was at peace?
MCVEIGH: At that time, there was no real threat except for the
cold war. I recognized the risk, but other than that I really didn't think about it.
TIME: You said you became disillusioned with war during the Gulf War experience. Could you tell me why?
MCVEIGH: When you're on the ground, and you're not in the rear of the action, you're right
up front, you realize that the people fighting are no different from you. They've got a wife and kids at home, they've got a family. They don't want to be out there. And you don't want to be there. You
realize you must fire on them or be killed yourself, that's the reality of war. When we took most of the surrendering Iraqis the first day and
saw how badly they had been treated and learned that the Republican Guard was behind them, not to back them up, but to make them hold in position, it completely changed your view of the war.
TIME: Were you then completely repulsed by the idea of war at that point?
MCVEIGH: I was taken aback by what I had been told. We all thought we were doing this for your country and these people
are terrible, every single one of them. You get over there and you realize two things, they're not so terrible and how is this helping my country?
TIME: How many of the enemy did you kill?
MCVEIGH: There were two. They were firing upon us. I'd like to put that rumor to rest. I think there was one person who
either mixed me up with someone else or for some reason was taking a pot shot at me. We rode up within 1600 meters of an enemy position and they fired upon us and we fired back. That
was on the second day of the conflict.
TIME: How did the war change your outlook on life and your outlook on the military?
MCVEIGH: It gave me a new perspective on life. First, to value every moment of your life, because it may be your last, you
never know. And it opened my eyes to be aware of everything going on around me, to read between the lines of things that I'm told.
The Trial
Prosecution's Case
TIME: What do you think about the prosecution's case against you?
MCVEIGH: Although we can't discuss the specific evidence, people have to realize that 90 percent of the case that people
think they have, has all been through non-verifiable leaks. And I think you would be surprised how much those leaks are bogus.
TIME: When people look at the Oklahoma bombing situation,
most people in Oklahoma say that based on what I've read, I think that Tim had some involvement. You say you're innocent. If you could
talk to the people in Oklahoma City, what would you tell them in your defense?
MCVEIGH: I think we know exactly what we're going to tell them, but we're going to save it for court. Judge (Richard)
Matsch doesn't want this tried in the press, and I agree with that. I think the government demonized me and they tried this in the press. I don't believe in trying this in the press. However,
I do believe in off-setting the demonization characteristics they put out or the demonization profiles they put out of me. I believe that it is a natural response and a just response. I
would like to save the facts for a court of law because that's why it's there.
TIME: Can you tell us this then, if you weren't in Oklahoma City the morning
of the bombing, where were you?
MCVEIGH: I can't tell you. We're saving that for trial.
The Conspiracy
TIME: Have you ever built a bomb?
MCVEIGH: I've never had my hand on one. I used to watch other people do it. I won't go into
that. There were 16 ounce plastic Pepsi bottles. And, I think it was in third grade chemistry class, I learned that if you mix baking soda and vinegar and it creates, I think, carbon dioxide gas. Well,
that's all they were basically doing. They'd put this stuff in a Pepsi bottle, screw the cap on real tight, and it would burst.
TIME: People believe The Turner Diaries was an inspiration for the Oklahoma
City bombing. You had this book, right?
MCVEIGH: I bought the book out of the publication that
advertised it as a pro-gun-rights book. That's why I bought it; that's why I read it. And that's why I had other people read it. In fact, I just recently read an interview with another Army
buddy who said the same thing, that Tim gave me that book and told me to ignore the parts that looked too extreme.
Judge and Jury
TIME: Are you satisfied with Judge Matsch based on what you've read about him?
MCVEIGH: And what I've seen of him. I'm impressed with the man. I like him. My view is that he is objective. He criticizes the
prosecution as much as the defense. He's not pulling favorites. I even like his sense of humor.
TIME: Why do you want to take the stand at your upcoming trial?
MCVEIGH: So that the jurors know me and not what they've read.
TIME: What do you ask of the jury that will be selected in Denver to judge you?
MCVEIGH: I know it's human nature to not ignore what you've heard in the press, but I would ask them to be objective and open-minded.
TIME: Are you happy that the trial will be held in Denver?
MCVEIGH: I'm happy with the change of venue. I'd read the Daily Oklahoman and you could see the impassioned responses to the
elements of this case. An example was when the residents of the state would say, we want to see justice, we want to see the death penalty. Well, how do you know there is
going to be justice? This is a court of law. They are already assuming what the verdict is going to be. It comes out not only in their direct statements but
by inference. So I think there is more of a neutral atmosphere.
Sentence
TIME: What do you think about Janet Reno and President Clinton calling for
the death penalty for the suspects in the bombing before the investigation had been completed?
MCVEIGH: I thought it was awfully hypocritical, especially after, in some ways, the government was responsible for doing
harm to its citizens. And there was no question whether to punish these people, let alone to the extreme. I thought she was playing both sides of the coin.
TIME: Do you think you will be acquitted?
MCVEIGH: I think that would be legal analysis of the case they had versus the case we will present in court.
TIME: You face the death penalty if convicted. How do you feel with that prospect confronting you?
MCVEIGH: I think because I was sent off to war, I think that helped me prepare for facing that
prospect with or possibility with an objective view. Okay, let's step back and not overreact. What do we do about it? And that helped.
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